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Ayodhya: Shit Goes on
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Ayodhya: Shit Goes on
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Ayodhya: Shit Goes on

Ayodhya: Shit Goes on

Key litigants on Ayodhya title suit dispute meet
CNN-IBN
Posted on Oct 03, 2010 at 15:05

New Delhi: Three days after the Allahabad High Court verdict on the
Ram Janmbhoomi-Babri Masjid title suit dispute, one of the key
litigants in the Ayodhya issue, Nirmohi Akhara’s Mahant Gyan Das and
Mohammad Hashim Ansari met in Ayodhya on Sunday.

The first sign of a possible compromise on the Ayodhya issue. Ansari
says it is better to solve the issue with talks.

Ansari has proposed Out-Of-Court settlement between both the parties
rather than go to the Supreme Court.

Hashim Ansari had also met Chief Priest of the Hanuman Garhi temple
Gyan Das, also the head of the Nirmohi Akhara Parishd, on September
23. There was a meeting amongst local Muslims before the verdict that
the matter be resolved at the local level.

Area under central dome is Ram Janmasthan: HC
Bhupendra Chaubey , CNN-IBN

Posted on Sep 30, 2010 at 20:29 | Updated Oct 01, 2010 at 08:46

New Delhi: The Lucknow bench of the Allahabad High Court on Thursday
decided by majority that the land under the central dome of the
demolished Babri Masjid is the Ram Janmasthan. While delivering its
verdict in the contentious 60-year-old Ram Janambhoomi-Babri Masjid
title suit case the three-judge special bench comprising of Justice
Sibghat Ullah Khan, Justice Sudhir Agrawal and Justice Dharam Veer
Sharma ruled that the 2.77 acres of land be divided into three parts –
one-third to the party representing ‘Ram Lala Virajman’, one-third to
Sunni Wakf Board and one-third to Nirmohi Akhara.

The High Court also dismissed the title suits of Sunni Wakf Board and
Nirmohi Akhara and declared them to be time barred. The court also
ruled that status quo be maintained for three months at the site in
Ayodhya.

“The honorable judges have dismissed Muslims suit and they have partly
allowed suit number five by Hindus. One judge has partly and one has
fully allowed. But the majority has decided that the land will be
divided in three parts. The court has said in three months till then
it is status quo,” said senior lawyer Ravi Shankar Prasad, who
represented Mahant Raghuvar Das.

The Sunni Wakf Board said that it would file an appeal against the
verdict in the Supreme Court

“We don’t accept the one third formula. We accept the mosque as an
intact body. But we believe there is no need for resentment as the
matter will go to the Supreme Court,” said Sunni Wakf Board lawyer
Zafaryab Jilani.

Hindu Mahasabha counsel PL Mishra said that that verdict had something
for every one.

“Honourable Justice Agarwal has said that pooja has always been
performed on the land where the Ram Lala exists. Lord Ram will
continue to exist there. But, the Nirmohi Akhara has been using the
premises as well. The Muslims have also been offering namaz there.
Hence, the land will be divided into three and each of them will
receive their part. The government-acquired land under Special
Acquisition Act of 1993 will be divided and then, other infrastructure
requirements for entry and exit of the three parts will be put up,”
said Mishra.

Justice Khan and Justice Agarwal said that the area under the central
dome of the three-domed structure where Lord Ram’s idol exists
belonged to Hindus.

However, the third judge Justice Sharma ruled that that the disputed
site was the birth place of Lord Ram and that the disputed building
constructed during the rule of Mughal emperor Babur was built against
the tenets of Islam and did not have the character of the mosque.

On the disputed structure, Justice Sharma said it “was constructed by
Babar, the year is not certain but it was against the tenets of Islam.
Thus, it cannot have the character of a mosque.”

Differing with the other two judges, he also ruled that the disputed
structure was constructed on the site of the old structure after
demolition of the same. “The Archaeological Survey of India has proved
that the structure was a massive Hindu religious structure,” he said.

He said the idols were placed in the middle dome of the disputed
structure in the intervening night of December 22 and 23, 1949.

With regard to the status of the disputed site — inner and outer
courtyard, Justice Sharma said “it is established that the property in
suit is the site of Janambhoomi of Ram Chandra Ji and Hindus in
general had the right to worship ‘charan’, ‘Sita Rasoi’, other idols
and other object of worship existed upon the property in suit.”

He said “it is also established that Hindus have been worshipping the
place in dispute as Janamsthan, i.e., a birth place as deity and
visiting it as a sacred place of pilgrimage as of right since time
immemorial.”

The judge said after the construction of the disputed structure, “it
is proved the deities were installed inside the disputed structure on
22/23.12.1949. It is also proved that the outer courtyard was in
exclusive possession of Hindus and they were worshipping throughout
and in the inner courtyard (in the disputed structure) they were also
worshipping.

“It is also established that the disputed structure cannot be treated
as a mosque as it came into existence against the tenets of Islam.”

Justice Khan said “all the three sets of parties, i.e. Muslims, Hindus
and Nirmohi Akhara are declared joint title holders of the property/
premises in dispute as described by letters A B C D E F in the map
Plan-I prepared by Shri Shiv Shankar Lal, Pleader/Commissioner
appointed by court in Suit No. 1 to the extent of 1/3rd share each for
using and managing the same for worshipping. A preliminary decree to
this effect is passed.”

However, the judge observed that it is further declared that the
portion below the central dome where at present the idol is kept in
makeshift temple will be allotted to Hindus in final decree.

He also said that Nirmohi Akhara will be allotted share including that
part which is shown by the words ‘Ram Chabutra’ and ‘Sita Rasoi’ in
the said map.

Justice Khan said even though all the three parties are declared to
have one-third share each, “however, if while allotting exact
portions, some minor adjustments in the share is to be made, then the
same will be made and the adversely-affected party may be compensated
by some portion of the adjoining land which has been acquired by the
central government.”

In his gist of findings, Justice Khan observed that the disputed
structure was constructed as mosque by or under the orders of Babar
but it is not proved by direct evidence that the premises in dispute
including constructed portion belonged to Babar or the person who
built it.

He also said that no temple was demolished for constructing the mosque
as it was built over the ruins of temple which was lying for a very
long time.

In his judgement, Justice Agarwal said “it is declared that the area
covered by the central dome of the three-domed structure, i.e., the
disputed structure being the deity of Bhagwan Ram Janamsthan and place
of birth of Lord Rama as per faith and belief of Hindus belong to
plaintiffs (party on behalf of Lord Rama) and shall not be obstructed
or interfered in any manner by the defendants.”

He also observed that the area within the inner courtyard excepting
some portion belongs to members of both the communities, Hindus and
Muslims, since it was being used by both since decades and centuries.

“It is, however, made clear that the for the purpose of share of
plaintiffs (parties on behalf of Lord Rama) under this direction”, the
area which is covered by central dome of the three-domed structure,
shall also be included, he said.

Justice Agarwal said the area covered by structures Ram Chabutra, Sita
Rasoi and Bhandar in the outer courtyard is declared in the share of
Nirmohi Akhara and they shall be entitled to possession thereof, in
the absence of any person with better title. Justice Agarwal said the
open area within the outer courtyard shall be shared by Nirmohi Akhara
and the party for Lord Rama since it has generally been used by the
Hindu people for worship at both places.

“It is, however, made clear that the share of Muslim parties shall not
be less than one-third of the total area of the premises and if
necessary, it may be given some area of outer courtyard.

“It is also made clear that while making metes and bounds, if some
minor adjustments are to be made with respect to the share of
different parties, the affected party may be compensated by allotting
the requisite land from the area which is under acquisition of the
Government of India,” the judge said.

In his findings on issues, Justice Agarwal said the parties of the
Muslim side have failed to prove that the property in dispute was
constructed by Babar in 1528 AD.

Justice Sharma, writing a separate judgement, observed that the
disputed site is the birth place of Lord Rama. “Place of birth is a
juristic person and is a deity. It is personified as a spirit of
divine worshipped as Lord Rama as a child.

“Spirit of divine ever remains present everywhere at all times for
anyone to invoke at any shape or form in accordance with his own
aspirations and it can be shapeless and formless also,” he said.

On the disputed structure, Justice Sharma said it “was constructed by
Babar, the year is not certain but it was against the tenets of Islam.
Thus, it cannot have the character of a mosque.”

Differing with the other two judges, he also ruled that the disputed
structure was constructed on the site of the old structure after
demolition of the same. “The Archaeological Survey of India has proved
that the structure was a massive Hindu religious structure,” he said.

He said the idols were placed in the middle dome of the disputed
structure in the intervening night of December 22 and 23, 1949.3

With regard to the status of the disputed site — inner and outer
courtyard, Justice Sharma said “it is established that the property in
suit is the site of Janambhoomi of Ram Chandra Ji and Hindus in
general had the right to worship ‘charan’, ‘Sita Rasoi’, other idols
and other object of worship existed upon the property in suit.”

He said “it is also established that Hindus have been worshipping the
place in dispute as Janamsthan, i.e., a birth place as deity and
visiting it as a sacred place of pilgrimage as of right since time
immemorial.”

The judge said after the construction of the disputed structure, “it
is proved the deities were installed inside the disputed structure on
22/23.12.1949. It is also proved that the outer courtyard was in
exclusive possession of Hindus and they were worshipping throughout
and in the inner courtyard (in the disputed structure) they were also
worshipping.

“It is also established that the disputed structure cannot be treated
as a mosque as it came into existence against the tenets of Islam.”

(With inputs from PTI) Watch Video:

September 30, 2010, 9:30 PM IST.Who Are the Nirmohi Akhara?.Search
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The Allahabad High Court delivered a complex verdict in the Babri
Masjid case today, dividing the sacred site into three parts – one for
Muslims and two for Hindus.

They had to deal in their case with a most unusual cast of characters,
including the Hindu god Lord Ram himself, who was named as a party to
the case by one of the (human) Hindu litigants.

Here is a glossary of some terms from the case that may not be
familiar to all:

Nirmohi Akhara

One third of the site will go to the Nirmohi Akhara, a group of Hindu
ascetics who are devotees of none other than Lord Ram. Their name
means, roughly, “Group Without Attachment.” They have given up the
material world for the company of their god. They are “sadhus” – or
Hindu holy men often characterized by the hermetic tendencies. They
claimed in court that there is no mosque called Babri Masjid at the
site in Ayodhya, nor did the Mughal commander Babur make any conquest
or any occupation of territory in India. They also claimed the site is
of ancient antiquity and has existed before the living memory of man.
Lord Ram and his court representatives receive another third of the
site.

Ram Janmabhoomi

Literally, this phrase means “the land Ram was born on.” Hindu groups
refer to the property in Ayodhya where the medieval Babri mosque
stood, and that was at the heart of the 60 year dispute with this
phrase. Ram is one of the most revered incarnations of one of the
deities of a Hindu trinity—the god of preservation, Vishnu.

Sunni Waqfs Board

This is an elected legal body that oversees Sunni Islamic properties
endowed for religious or charitable purposes. The plaintiff in the
case that was decided Thursday was the Uttar Pradesh Sunni Central
Board of Waqfs, which supervises these properties in the state where
the town of Ayodhya is located. The board gets the third portion of
the site.

Ram Lalla

This refers to Hindu idols placed in the central dome of the mosque,
allegedly in 1949. The phrase specifically refers to Ram as a baby or
a young child. Parts of the Hindu suits revolved around seeking access
to these idols and having them remain there, while the Muslim
plaintiffs wanted them removed.

Nirmohi Akhara
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v • d • e

Nirmohi Akhara is a Hindu religious denomination comprising ardent
devotees of Lord Hanuman. It is one of the 14 akharas recognized by
the Akhil Bharatiya Akhara Parishad, and belongs to the Vaishnava
sampradaya.[1] It is headed by Mahant Bhaskar Das.

This group has been in the spotlight in connection with the Ayodhya
debate since 1949 when it filed a suit to take over the disputed site
of Babri Mosque.[2]

The name means, roughly, “Group Without Attachment.” They have
renounced the material world for the company of God. They are “sadhus”
– or Hindu holy men often characterized by ascetic tendencies. They
have claimed in court that there is no mosque called Babri Masjid at
the disputed site in Ayodhya. [3]

Nirmohi Akhara filed a suit in 1885 (as per Allahabad High Court
Judgement dated 30 September 2010, see below reference No.4) with the
sub-judge of Faizabad, seeking consent to construct a temple for the
Hindu God Rama in the area called the Ram Chabutra, adjacent to the
Babri Mosque. The sub-judge held then that two large religious
structures in close proximity could potentially be a threat to public
order. Permission was denied by the court, though the Nirmohi Akhara
has since kept up its effort to reclaim the land and construct the
temple.[4]

In 1989, the Nirmohi Akhara filed a lawsuit against the Uttar Pradesh
State government claiming that they had been worshiping the deities
installed at a temple at the then disputed site since time immemorial.
Accordingly, they requested the Court to hand over management of the
temple to the Nirmohi Akhara.[5]

On September 30, 2010, a Lucknow panel of three judges of the
Allahabad High Court pronounced the verdict on the case deciding to
give a third part of the land to each party namely the Sunni Waqf
Board, Ram-Lalla Deity and Nirmohi Akhara, with the Ram-Lalla Deity
retaining its present position and the Nirmohi Akhara getting the
areas named Sita Rasoi and Ram Chabutara, within the disputed site.[2]
[6]

References

1.^ http://www.firstfoundation.in/who_rel_H_Akhadas.htm
2.^ a b http://www.hindustantimes.com/Ayodhya-land-to-be-divided-into-three-parts-HC/Article1-606452.aspx
3.^ http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2010/09/30/who-are-the-nirmohi-akhara/
4.^ http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1907/19070040.htm
5.^ Allahabad High Court Judgement summary, page 15, 17[1]
6.^ http://www.asianage.com/india/who-nirmohi-akhara-252

This organization-related article is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by
expanding it.

v • d • e

Nirmohi Akhara is a Hindu religious sect of the Vaishnavite order. It
was established in 1720 by Ramanandacharya to counter the growing
influence of Shaivism. Akhara literally means a wrestling ring, and
thus suggests militant overtones of the religious sect. The rich sect
owns many temples and mutts in the Indian states of Uttar Pradesh,
Uttarakhand, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, Gujarat and Bihar. Members of
the sect are expected to lead a simple and austere life of celibacy
and accept Rama as the presiding God. New recruits to the sect are
mainly in their teens and maybe from any Hindu caste. They are put
through a gruelling schedule of mastering the Hindu scriptures (Vedas
and Upanishads) and also martial arts. In former times members of the
sect had a mandate to provide protection to the followers of Rama and
were provided rigorous training in archery, swordsmanship and
wrestling. These are still part of their curriculum but in a moderate
way.

Retrieved from “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirmohi_Akhara“
Categories: Organization stubs | Organisations based in Uttar Pradesh
| Ayodhya | Hindu movements and organizations | Hindu denominations

•This page was last modified on 2 October 2010 at 18:51.

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03/10/2010

« Biharis Bang, Oops, Ban Narendra Modi’s Ass
navanavonmilita
2010-10-03 18:25:36 UTC
Permalink
<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/oct/03/
babri-mosque-india-hindu-secularism">A blow against India's
secularism</a>

The verdict on the Babri mosque has given Hindu nationalists a victory
efforts to recast Indian identity in Hindu terms

Comments (15)

Kapil Komireddi guardian.co.uk, Sunday 3 October 2010 16.00 BST
Article historyMove on. That is the refrain across India after the
Allahabad high court on Thursday delivered its judgment on the
ownership of the land in Ayodhya in northern India where, until just
over a decade and a half ago, the Babri mosque had stood for nearly
six centuries.

On 6 December 1992, Hindu mobs razed the mosque to the ground,
inaugurating a cycle of communal slaughter. The mosque, they claimed,
had been built upon the site of the Hindu deity Rama's birth, after
destroying a glorious temple that honoured him.

The mosque was thus emblematic of Muslim barbarity and Hindu
servitude. As history, it was nonsense: there is no evidence to
suggest that Rama even existed.

But to its proponents – primarily the rightwing Bharatiya Janata party
(BJP) whose hierarchs campaigned for the mosque's destruction and,
according to some reports, incited the mobs to bring it down on 6
December – this atavistic act of vandalism was an announcement of
India's irrevocable departure from the assumptions around which its
nationalism had been built. Religion was no longer going to be
irrelevant in determining full membership to the Indian state.

The Allahabad court has done nothing to reverse course. In fact,
rather than wresting India from Hindu majoritarianism, its verdict has
given legal imprimatur to it. According to it, the Hindu litigants,
whose claim to the property has factual basis only in terror, should
be rewarded for their actions with two-thirds of the land. Muslims,
whose mosque was first appropriated and then destroyed, will get one-
third of it. Those who assumed the absurdity of the case would be
limited to admitting Rama as a real-world litigant had evidently
underestimated the justices' capacity for cowardice.

What is more disappointing, however, is the ease with which Indian
secularists have accepted this verdict. India, they say, has moved on
– but in what direction? If Indians seem less concerned today by this
dispute than they were in the 1990s, it's not because the issue does
not resonate with them: it is because what was at stake then – Indian
secularism – itself has been allowed to diminish in importance by its
custodians.

The wall that once separated membership of faith from citizenship of
the country has come down in today's India. What does it say about a
nation's capacity to sustain its plural identity when its liberal
voices accept – even welcome – the entrenchment of a dictum which,
ignoring every principle of natural justice, punishes the injured
minority to placate the majority?

The votaries of Hindu nationalism have won their first major battle to
recast Indian history and identity in explicitly Hindu terms. To them,
this verdict paves the way for the completion of the Rama temple they
seek to erect on the site of the mosque they destroyed. The message to
India's minorities is clear: they owe their rights to the goodwill of
the majority. The verdict of the Allahabad court may yet be overturned
by the supreme court – but something terrible already has happened:
India has come to resemble Pakistan.

Comments in chronological order (Total 15 comments)

Mauryan
3 October 2010 4:12PM

Your article is fine. The only thing I found interesting was this
comment:

there is no evidence to suggest that Rama even existed.

For that matter, there is no evidence Allah exists either.

Religion can be beneficial. At the same time it has detrimental
effects if ignorance creeps in.

Babri mosque demolition by the Hindu fanatics is actually a political
scheme to achieve gains. The BJP party did gain a lot through this act
in the 1990s.

But that is in the past. For the past two elections, the BJP's
Hindutva slogans have been falling into deaf ears and the voters have
indicated clearly what they want from the politicians. BJP seems to
have understood this. If they want to be in the national politics,
then Hindutva will not fly. So they are trying to change their
outlook. This is good for democracy. Unlike the 1990s, the BJP and its
monkey brigade is not trying to whip up Hindutva sentiments. Democracy
is forcing the needed change through the power of voting. In the long
run, things will work out fine.

I would like to see the place converted into a museum or a hospital or
research center. Any time a religious dispute arises about a place,
the verdict should be to throw out both parties and build something
neutral and non-religious there. That will discourage these goons from
claiming rights over every religious place.

This verdict is good in the sense it has given peace a chance. India
does not need a Muslim-Hindu conflict now. There are enough jackals
around to capitalize on it. From that stand point this verdict has
taken into account the direction towards peace. Every verdict has
unhappy parties. We need to look at it from a broader sense. Sometimes
peace is more important than anything else.

Recommend? (12)

LucyQ
3 October 2010 4:23PM

No more religion, anywhere for any reason.

Imagine a place where almost no one ever goes to church, the majority
of people do not believe in God, and among those who do, their belief
is fairly watery and thin.

Oh yes please.

people can be upstanding, decent, and just without religious faith.
Denmark is not only one of the safest places on earth, but it is also
one of the most moral and ethically conscious cultures in the modern
world. Children are well taken care of, as are the elderly, as are the
physically and mentally challenged, as are orphans, and the sick, and
the afflicted.

Equality, freedom, democracy

All nations should aspire to the Danish model and fast track to
achieve such goals.

Recommend? (5)

BlueCollar
3 October 2010 5:11PM

Indian court sanctified Hindu claim. Rama's birth place. What if
tomorrow, someone claims that Great Mosque of Delhi is built on
another Hindu deity's birth place & Advani leads the march? The
judgement is a clear blow to secularism. To montheistic followers,
Rama & other Hindu deities are parts of mythology , just like Greek
mythology. Mr. Komireddi's point is well taken.

AbhishekMisra
3 October 2010 5:20PM

Dear Kapil,

It is good that you have expressed your views on this judgement.
However you have missed that it has been derived from 18yrs of
litigation, research and analysis. Judges, researchers, labourers,
analysts ... were from both Hindu and Islamic community. If you
carefully read statements of all three judges, you will find important
common denominator on which verdict is based. The most important thing
is that its open to be challenged in Supreme Court. This is not a
legislation as in case of Switzerland and France.

regards
Abhishek

Recommend? (5)

flaky
3 October 2010 5:44PM

All nations should aspire to the Danish model and fast track to
achieve such goals

As an athiest I have no interest in religion, however the sorry
episode of Jyllands-Posten publishing the "Mohammad cartoons" where so-
called "freedom of speech" was used to demonise a minority (by
conflating all of Islam and muslims with terrorism) was not a
particularly wholesome demonstration of the "Danish model" you
advocate.

Recommend? (1)

Mauryan
3 October 2010 5:56PM

Kapil,

Thanks for your frank opinions. We need to see the situation from all
angles. Your views are well taken. I'd like to see an article by an
Indian Muslim like MJ Akbar on CiF. So far only people of "Hindu"
origin have written articles for and against the Babri verdict. Let us
hear from a reputed Indian Muslim writer on the same topic. I also
would like to see someone like Kuldip Nayyar and Kushwant Singh to pen
their views here. Can the Guardian arrange for that?


flaky
3 October 2010 6:02PM

India has come to resemble Pakistan


Agree with most of your article Mr Komireddi except for this
observation. In theory (based on its constitution) India is indeed a
secular nation, however in practice unfortunately the secular ideal
fall well short. The proliferation of religious symbolism in public
buildings, in the offices of important Governmental officials etc. is
the norm rather than the exception for example. People still wear
religion on their sleeves and minor real or perceived slights can lead
to riots. Religious prejudice is widespread and often cited as a cause
for lack of equal opportunity for certain minorities (particularly
those who do not typically benefit from affirmative action policies).
In these key respects India has always resembled Pakistan and still
does. I the best we can relatively cautiously claim is that India is
perhaps slowly and steadily moving in the right direction while
Pakistan is probably going backwards.

Recommend? (1)

buntyj
3 October 2010 6:08PM

the author shows ignorance of law on religious issues as do many
critics of the judgement; no doubt also confused by the fact that rama
is believed to be a deity and not a prophet; the various jehovahs
witnesses rulings in the west have set the tests- what is to be seen
is if its a core belief and not whether a 3rd person deems it to be
reasonable; since rama is believed to be a deity asking the court to
establish his fact is like asking a court to decide evidence on god or
allah; the courts can't. all that they can do is see whether there is
evidence of belief and how important that belief is to those
concerned; this was a core distinction that eludes most of the critics
looking for historical evidence of rama; its no more required than is
evidence of allah or god as rama was not a prophet but believed to be
a deity. hence, in terms of well established secular jurisprudence the
issue for which evidence is sought is the fact of belief rather than
the established historical fact. of course such jurisprudence had not
been extended to hindus on such sensitive issues; but this would be
evidence of discrimination against hindus and thus this judgement has
corrected it by applying the normal yardsticks rather than violating
hindu belief of rama as a deity by seeking evidence of him as
historical prophet or saviour.
there is empirical evidence to show that for centuries hindus regarded
the site as rama's birthplace (though the precise spot under the
central dome may only be a few centuries old tradition) the mosque was
named as the masjid-janmasthana (mosque of the birthplace) for that
reason. there is evidence of unique co worship by hindus and muslims
prior to 1855; to ascertain belief these facts are sufficient; there
is also evidence of a hindu structure antedating the mosque though its
not clear if it was a rama temple or when and how it was destroyed;
the next issue is the dismissal of the muslim suit. this was done on
the technical issue of limitation which was unfortunately the case;
filing late by a few days or week could likely have been condoned but
by many years could not;
looking at muslim and hindu tenets the court ruled that the mosque was
not built according to islamic tenets and was not legally a mosque
though it had been so used; and that hindus and muslims do not require
a mosque or temple structure in which to pray;
some confusion also arises as to the courts ignoring the televised and
grievous demolition in 92; but the court was not looking into the
demolition (another case, another court- it may well yet lead to some
prosecutions and convictions) but only at 50-60 year old title suits.
from the point of view of due process it would have been wrong for the
court to be influenced by the demolition for deciding the title suits.
many persons oppose the judgement as they see a hindu victory- but the
court after accepting the title of 1 hindu party in suit divided the
property among all 3 claimants. few litigants would savour such a
victory. moreover, the extremist hindu demand wasnt only for a rama
temple at the site but for no mosque in the town; on land division and
'no mosque' the extremists lost; moreover, if as a result of this
judgement hindu extremists are no longer able to say that they will
not find justice from secularist courts than they will find few
supporters for similar movements in the future; even many of their
sympathisers will say 'let the courts decide'.
the act passed in 92 following the demolition protects other places of
worship so the fear that this judgement will set an unwelcome
precedent appears to be ill informed and very difficult.
so is this a good judgement-? no, it is admittedly like a curates egg;
the judges appear to have muddled their way through to a compromise.
but the main criticisms that they should have applied historical
evidence tests for rama and sought to penalise the 92 demolition
rather than address the suits themselves or condone the many years
delay in the muslim suit are incorrect and the fear of setting a bad
precedent appears to be misplaced; and, as compromises go it couldve
been worse.
personally, i would either like to see no temple and no mosque at the
site or 1 of each; this judgement enables it; and yes the country can
do worse than 'move on'. after the decline of socialism, secularism
has admittedly received a setback in many societies including india
but if properly implemented the judgement will arrest this trend in
india;
yes in view of the 92 demolition muslims may feel dissapointed; but
the solution won't be wrong decisions in this case departing from the
general rule of law or perpetuating the conflict but hope of speedier
trial and some convictions in the demolition cases.
that would bring justice and closure and foster secular values.

Recommend? (1)

otmshank
3 October 2010 6:15PM

Even though I am of the opinion that the land should have remained
with the Muslims, the author tries to portray that this was a verdict
on the events of 1992.
This is blatant obfuscation of facts to support his argument. The
events of '92 are being heard in a separate case. This case is much
older, starting in 1949. In fact, before it moved to the High Court it
was heard in a sessions court in 1886, and the judge, an Englishman,
delivered this verdict :

"It is most unfortunate that a Masjid should have been built on land
specially held sacred by the Hindus, but as that occurred 356 years
ago, it is too late to remedy the grievance."


@BlueCollar

To montheistic followers, Rama & other Hindu deities are parts of
mythology

You seem to suggest that monotheistic religions are superior to
pantheistic ones. How did you arrive at this conclusion?
All are equally crap.

KidharHey
3 October 2010 6:18PM

Dear Kapil,

I am a bit surprised that you state " India has come to resemble
Pakistan." Is it?

I am not from India though I am of an Indian ancestary. I do not see
any resemblance.

In India, Muslims are not converted ( by Hindus ) either by persuasion
or by force as what Hindus go thru in Pakistan. In Pakistan they write
on a coffin of their countryman "kafir" if he happens to be a Hindu.
In Pakistan they destroy places of worship (HIndu and Muslim - if that
happens to be Shia place of worship) .

The trial & verdict for Ayodhya plot was for a title .

I followed the verdict as it unfolded and I have copies of the 3
judgements.

The central fact that came over - was that since many centuries -
both
Hindus and Muslims were worshipping in the present day "Babri Masjid".

Also over last few centuries Muslims have started to acknowledge the
area to
be a possible RamBhoomi. That is why they were refering it as " Masjid
Janmabhumi ".

The verdict is excellent - all parties get to build their own latest
version of Religious needs. Mind you Sunni Muslims are NOT the whole
Muslim community.

There are Shias and others - who have no interest in this dispute.
Sunnies ,
in fact - judging from what is happening in Pakistan - do not consider
Shias
or Ahmadias or others as Muslims .

Ram's life is full of belief in justice and the modern day Indian High
Court (with 3 justices - 2 of Hindyu faith and 1 of Muslim faith) has
come up with a visionary verdict.

It would help if British newspapers stop trying to use " divide & rule
" instinct bred in British psyche for last few centuries.

regards

Recommend? (1)

Arrowhead
3 October 2010 6:19PM

@Kapil Komireddi

The mosque was thus emblematic of Muslim barbarity and Hindu
servitude. As history, it was nonsense: there is no evidence to
suggest that Rama even existed."

You could say the same about Jesus, there is no real evidence of his
existence; where he was born or where he died.

This is about faith! Hindu's believe Lord Rama was born in Ayodhya ,
that's all that counts, this belief makes the site of great importance
to millions of Hindu's.

Secularism is important, but before you continue throwing stones at
India's Great Free Democracy, remember India has made great efforts to
become a more inclusive society, many laws have been brought in to
help minorities.

In America their is open bigotry against Islam which is snowballed
into all out hatred. In Switzerland they banned new Mosque's from
being built and in France and Netherlands they have banned the Burka.

While Europeans want freedom to build Churches in the third world they
do not reciprocate in their own countries!

India is doing very well thank you in spite of terrible stone throwers
like yourself!

Recommend? (1)

buntyj
3 October 2010 6:23PM

@bluecollar-' to monotheistic adherents rama is mythology'; thats the
point; the legal tests for religious freedom under secular
jurisprudence do not require affirmation by non adherents of the
faith; to atheists even monotheism and creation are myths; the world
would collapse in conflicts and intolerance if the tests were whether
3rd parties accepted a belief or how they view it? courts as organs of
secular states must respect and tolerate religions and faith and thus
the only test they can apply is not whether creation is a myth,
whether allah or god or rama are myths, whether seas can be parted or
angels exist or reveal gods will to the chosen prophets; the only test
that courts can apply is whether there is such an established belief
and within the context of the concerned faith the relative importance
of that belief; a core hindu grievance has traditionally been that
hindus have been denied the benefits of such secular jurisprudence -
first on the mindset that not being monotheists or an organised
religion their faith is not a religion and not worthy of respect as
such and secondly that their faith is mere myths or superstition or at
most 'eastern philosophy'; this judgement by extending the tests of
normal secular jurisprudence to hindus will correct this and thus
allow this grievance to subside sooner rather than later and this
would greatly assist the rule of law and secular values

parunach1
3 October 2010 6:34PM

I wonder when this obsession with religion will end. Given the
problems that people face with basics, the last thing we need is
another religious battle. I see this happening everywhere. Now, Europe
is facing what Mumbai faced with many countries on alert.
I guess we humans must fight the farcical battles as the real ones are
more difficult to overcome. It would have been easy if this case had
allocated the land to the muslims and the hindus accepted the
agreement and moved on. I guess that is too much to expect. I wish
that the next generation Indians would wake up from this nightmare and
be more mature about the issues to be focussed on, We need to fight
the fights that require fighting.

Recommend? (1)

purhze
3 October 2010 6:51PM

This case was sadly complicated by interested parties like the
historians called as witnesses to the suit. The judges were correct in
discounting this extreme atheist reliance on historicity, because
nowhere in the world does the construction of a place of worship
depend upon proving the historicity of any religious figure.

I think the more important revelation is that, for all intents and
purposes, the modern Indian state sees itself as the successor to an
ancient state far predating 1947 (the Archelogy service says this site
was inhabited since BC 1300 +/-150), with the current constitution
just laying down the latest rules of the land.

BarabbasFreed
3 October 2010 6:58PM

Arrowhead

You could say the same about Jesus, there is no real evidence of his
existence; where he was born or where he died.

Without wishing to derail the thread, can you point to one academic
historian who says Jesus didn't exist. They are remarkably thin on the
ground.

...and I am Sid Harth

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