Discussion:
Sexual harassment in India: American student's story sparks reaction
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unknown
2013-08-27 13:47:18 UTC
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http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/23190365/sexual-harassment-in-india-american-student39s-story-sparks-reaction

(CNN) -- Michaela Cross, an American student at the University of
Chicago, has written a powerful account of her study abroad trip to
India last year, during which she says she experienced relentless
sexual harassment, groping and worse.

Upon her return, she says she was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress
disorder and is now on a mental leave of absence from the school after
a public breakdown in the spring.

Cross, a fair-skinned, red-haired South Asian studies major, titled her
story "India: The Story You Never Wanted to Hear." She posted her
account on CNN iReport under the username RoseChasm.

Her story has struck a chord around the world, racking up about 350,000
page views as of Tuesday morning. It quickly found its way to India,
where many readers sympathized with the story and men felt compelled to
apologize for the experience she endured. Others called for greater
perspective and warned against making generalizations about India or
its people.
Mr. B1ack
2013-08-27 14:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/23190365/sexual-harassment-in-india-american-student39s-story-sparks-reaction
(CNN) -- Michaela Cross, an American student at the University of
Chicago, has written a powerful account of her study abroad trip to
India last year, during which she says she experienced relentless
sexual harassment, groping and worse.
What's the old phrase about heat and kitchens ?

Clue, India is NOT the USA. Don't EXPECT people there
to be "just like Americans" or operate by the same legal
or cultural standards and norms. Clearly the real-world
sexual behavior norms there are a weird mix of what
Americans would call 'ultra-conservative' and 'ultra-
liberal' and probably some stuff that beamed in from
Mars too.

Indians are in NO way obligated to be "just like Americans".
If you go there, you need to either get into THEIR groove or
get the hell OUT. They'll put up with foreigners for the most
part but never imagine that your American or British passport
somehow puts you on a pedestal behind glass where no one
will possibly 'offend' your delicate 1st-world sensibilities.

Ms. Cross should have researched contemporary Indian
culture before she went there. Single women are fair
game and should expect a lot of guys hitting on them.
Whether that's considered "harassment" or "flattering"
kinda depends on the individual. If it wasn't something
Ms.Cross could tolerate, if she couldn't go with that
flow, then she should never have gone to India in
the first place.

I suppose next year she will go to Mecca and be all
offended and harassed because she's expected to
dress in a black body-bag or be treated like a hooker.
That's how they do things THERE. Go to China and
it'll be different again. If Ms. Cross thinks that the USA
should somehow be setting the behavioral/cultural
norms for the whole world then she's just another
yankee cultural-imperialist - part of why we have such
a crappy reputation abroad.

I'll end with another old adage ... "When in Rome ..."
unknown
2013-08-27 15:22:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/23190365/sexual-harassment-in-india-american-student39s-story-sparks-reaction
(CNN) -- Michaela Cross, an American student at the University of
Chicago, has written a powerful account of her study abroad trip to
India last year, during which she says she experienced relentless
sexual harassment, groping and worse.
" What's the old phrase about heat and kitchens ?

Clue, India is NOT the USA. Don't EXPECT people there
to be "just like Americans" or operate by the same legal
or cultural standards and norms. Clearly the real-world
sexual behavior norms there are a weird mix of what
Americans would call 'ultra-conservative' and 'ultra-
liberal' and probably some stuff that beamed in from
Mars too.

Indians are in NO way obligated to be "just like Americans".
If you go there, you need to either get into THEIR groove or
get the hell OUT. They'll put up with foreigners for the most
part but never imagine that your American or British passport
somehow puts you on a pedestal behind glass where no one
will possibly 'offend' your delicate 1st-world sensibilities.

Ms. Cross should have researched contemporary Indian
culture before she went there. Single women are fair
game and should expect a lot of guys hitting on them.
Whether that's considered "harassment" or "flattering"
kinda depends on the individual. If it wasn't something
Ms.Cross could tolerate, if she couldn't go with that
flow, then she should never have gone to India in
the first place.

I suppose next year she will go to Mecca and be all
offended and harassed because she's expected to
dress in a black body-bag or be treated like a hooker.
That's how they do things THERE. Go to China and
it'll be different again. If Ms. Cross thinks that the USA
should somehow be setting the behavioral/cultural
norms for the whole world then she's just another
yankee cultural-imperialist - part of why we have such a crappy
reputation abroad." "

The only thing missing in this is that if one should ask indians the self
declared ideology is something quite different. A woman is to be honored,
india is a "civilized country", etc., but which in reality is not always
the case. If one read the article it said that indians were shocked by
what she experienced.

One thinks this was written by someone from the west, and the self same
points regarding point of perspective also apply to the poster, no?
Mr. B1ack
2013-08-27 16:17:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by unknown
http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/23190365/sexual-harassment-in-india-american-student39s-story-sparks-reaction
(CNN) -- Michaela Cross, an American student at the University of
Chicago, has written a powerful account of her study abroad trip to
India last year, during which she says she experienced relentless
sexual harassment, groping and worse.
" What's the old phrase about heat and kitchens ?
Clue, India is NOT the USA. Don't EXPECT people there
to be "just like Americans" or operate by the same legal
or cultural standards and norms. Clearly the real-world
sexual behavior norms there are a weird mix of what
Americans would call 'ultra-conservative' and 'ultra-
liberal' and probably some stuff that beamed in from
Mars too.
Indians are in NO way obligated to be "just like Americans".
If you go there, you need to either get into THEIR groove or
get the hell OUT. They'll put up with foreigners for the most
part but never imagine that your American or British passport
somehow puts you on a pedestal behind glass where no one
will possibly 'offend' your delicate 1st-world sensibilities.
Ms. Cross should have researched contemporary Indian
culture before she went there. Single women are fair
game and should expect a lot of guys hitting on them.
Whether that's considered "harassment" or "flattering"
kinda depends on the individual. If it wasn't something
Ms.Cross could tolerate, if she couldn't go with that
flow, then she should never have gone to India in
the first place.
I suppose next year she will go to Mecca and be all
offended and harassed because she's expected to
dress in a black body-bag or be treated like a hooker.
That's how they do things THERE. Go to China and
it'll be different again. If Ms. Cross thinks that the USA
should somehow be setting the behavioral/cultural
norms for the whole world then she's just another
yankee cultural-imperialist - part of why we have
such a crappy reputation abroad." "
The only thing missing in this is that if one should ask indians the self
declared ideology is something quite different. A woman is to be honored,
india is a "civilized country", etc., but which in reality is not always
the case. If one read the article it said that indians were shocked by
what she experienced.
I made use of the term "Real-World" for a good reason,
because what the high-up elites who imagine they define
a nations culture and norms are full of shit. "Ideal" is
NEVER the same as "Real" ... often not even close.

Sexuality is hardwired into the species and, despite any
"enlightened ideals" the guys WILL hit on the girls and
often vice-versa. How it's done varies with time and
place but it's always done and on the streets it's usually
done in ways old fossilized elitists would NOT approve
of. Amongst the Great Unwashed, sex is REAL, not
some ideal, and there's a limit to how and how much
sexuality can be tamed and restrained.

In modern Inda they do things the Indan way. Don't like
it - then don't go, or wait 25 years and maybe things
will be a bit different (not neccessarily in ways pampered
western women might like however).

So, while women may be ideally, and often literally
"honored", it' just not going to be the same as what
Americans or Canadians or Brits or Frenchies may
have in their minds. They shouldn' be "shocked"
and any complaints should be tempered by the
understanding that world cultures differ widely
and nobody gets to set a global standard -
especially for a "right" and "wrong" way to make
whoopie.
Post by unknown
One thinks this was written by someone from the west, and the self same
points regarding point of perspective also apply to the poster, no?
The big western 1st-world nations, especially the USA,
often have a serious problem with ethnocentricity. When
you are surrounded by millions of people in a nice busy
prosperous country that kind of do things one way ...
you're likely to think that's how it's done, and ought to
be done, *everywhere*.

And then you're *shocked* to discover otherwise ....
unknown
2013-08-27 18:15:52 UTC
Permalink
"They shouldn' be "shocked" and any complaints should be tempered by the
understanding that world cultures differ widely and nobody gets to set a global standard - especially for a "right" and "wrong" way to make
especially for a "right" and "wrong" way to make whoopie."

You bet, she desirved it, and this victim must be the cause not the effect
of what she experienced .

You have not experienced much of the world have you? Your knowledge of
indian cultures, the many hundreds of cultures, is showing.

She had been to india before, spoke some hindi, was a student of s. asia
and had a course of preperation from the university about what to expect
which included indians. This is a recent trend that indians are finding
very shocking themselves.
Mr. B1ack
2013-08-28 01:58:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
"They shouldn' be "shocked" and any complaints should be tempered by the
understanding that world cultures differ widely and nobody gets to set a global standard - especially for a "right" and "wrong" way to make
especially for a "right" and "wrong" way to make whoopie."
You bet, she desirved it, and this victim must be the cause not the effect
of what she experienced .
Well, I don't know if she was the "cause" exactly ... other
than being an unattached/unmarried young woman who
would be seen as "fair game" by a lot of horny young men.

Actually, even the USA was much like this until fairly recently.
Men would come on unrelentingly strong towards women they
desired. Some women felt "harassed", some didn't, but in
any case it was "normal". Still is to a great extent, if the PC
gestapo aren't watching.

What moderates such behavior ? "Plenty". Enough good
jobs, and enough willing women (which means cheap
and effective contraceptives). Then the pressure is off,
it's no longer like a military mission to extract a little sex
and fun out of life before you die young of starvation or
some horrible disease.
Post by unknown
You have not experienced much of the world have you? Your knowledge of
indian cultures, the many hundreds of cultures, is showing.
She had been to india before, spoke some hindi, was a student of s. asia
and had a course of preperation from the university about what to expect
which included indians. This is a recent trend that indians are finding
very shocking themselves.
"Recent" ... but hardly an overnight change. She should
have know times were changing and mentally prepared
herself - or stayed home.

Developing social trends CAN perhaps catch an individual
off-guard - that Australian baseball player didn't expect to
be murdered by some guys looking to cure their boredom
after all - especially not in conservative religiony Oklahoma.
However for him it was sudden ... for our "artist" here she
clearly had plenty of opportunity to see how things were
developing and go home. Instead she remained until she
allegedly suffered mental trauma (which seems suprisingly
easy for modern Americans to develop).

The USA is changing now too ... the propensity towards
violent and insane acts has greatly increased over the
past decade and the trend seems to be accellerating.
Exactly why isn't clear - if it was it could have been
fixed long ago. Seems as if people are just "fed up"
with ... well ... with *everything* and have lost all
patience, all tolerance and sometimes all reason.
Their unfocused anger no longer just simmers, it
explodes.

This is something people thinking of coming to America
should be aware of, something they should be prepared
for. Alas a foreigner generally can't "read" unfamiliar
people very well and could actually cause rather than
avoid trouble.

unknown
2013-08-27 16:12:17 UTC
Permalink
The question has been raised that this student should have known what she
was in for. In fact she had been to india before, spoke some hindi, and
was a s. asian major. Also her university had a preperation course that
included indians about what to expect. What she experienced is a recent
trend of women single or in groups, such as was this student, being the
subject of severe sexual abuse and even assult.

The question seems now more about blaming the victim.

The below is her account of her time in india, what happened to her after
returning can be followed at the link:

'India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear'

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1023053

When people ask me about my experience studying abroad in India, I
always face the same dilemma. How does one convey the contradiction
that over the past few months has torn my life apart, and convey it in
a single succinct sentence?

"India was wonderful," I go with, "but extremely dangerous for women."
Part of me dreads the follow-up questions, and part of me hopes for
more. I'm torn between believing in the efficacy of truth, and being
wary of how much truth people want.


Because, how do I describe my three months in the University of Chicago
Indian civilizations program when it was half dream, half nightmare?
Which half do I give


Do I tell them about our first night in the city of Pune, when we
danced in the Ganesha festival, and leave it at that? Or do I go on and
tell them how the festival actually stopped when the American women
started dancing, so that we looked around to see a circle of men
filming our every move?


Do I tell them about bargaining at the bazaar for beautiful saris
costing a few dollars a piece, and not mention the men who stood
watching us, who would push by us, clawing at our breasts and groins?

When people compliment me on my Indian sandals, do I talk about the man
who stalked me for forty-five minutes after I purchased them, until I
yelled in his face in a busy crowd?


Do I describe the lovely hotel in Goa when my strongest memory of it
was lying hunched in a fetal position, holding a pair of scissors with
the door bolted shut, while the staff member of the hotel who had tried
to rape my roommate called me over and over, and breathing into the
phone?


How, I ask, was I supposed to tell these stories at a Christmas party?
But how could I talk about anything else when the image of the smiling
man who masturbated at me on a bus was more real to me than my friends,
my family, or our Christmas tree? All those nice people were asking the
questions that demanded answers for which they just weren't prepared.


When I went to India, nearly a year ago, I thought I was prepared. I
had been to India before; I was a South Asian Studies major; I spoke
some Hindi. I knew that as a white woman I would be seen as a
promiscuous being and a sexual prize. I was prepared to follow the
University of Chicago's advice to women, to dress conservatively, to
not smile in the streets. And I was prepared for the curiosity my red
hair, fair skin and blue eyes would arouse.


But I wasn't prepared.


There was no way to prepare for the eyes, the eyes that every day
stared with such entitlement at my body, with no change of expression
whether I met their gaze or not. Walking to the fruit seller's or the
tailer's I got stares so sharp that they sliced away bits of me piece
by piece. I was prepared for my actions to be taken as sex signals; I
was not prepared to understand that there were no sex signals, only
women's bodies to be taken, or hidden away.


I covered up, but I did not hide. And so I was taken, by eye after eye,
picture after picture. Who knows how many photos there are of me in
India, or on the internet: photos of me walking, cursing, flipping
people off. Who knows how many strangers have used my image as
pornography, and those of my friends. I deleted my fair share, but it
was a drop in the ocean-- I had no chance of taking back everything
they took


For three months I lived this way, in a traveler's heaven and a woman's
hell. I was stalked, groped, masturbated at; and yet I had adventures
beyond my imagination. I hoped that my nightmare would end at the
tarmac, but that was just the beginning. Back home Christmas red seemed
faded after vermillion, and food tasted spiceless and bland. Friends,
and family, and classes, and therapy, and everything at all was so much
less real than the pain, the rage that was coursing through my blood,
screaming so loud it deafened me to all other sounds. And after months
of elation at living in freedom, months of running from the memories
breathing down my neck, I woke up on April Fool's Day and found I
wanted to be dead.
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